How to use Chicago Manual of Style with superscript cite numbers and sequential endnotes instead of footnotes?

[fschodt]

I am going somewhat crazy trying to figure out how to use Chicago manual of Style with endnotes, instead of footnotes in Cite while you Write in Word 2013.  I chose, instead of author-date, numbered, but not numbers are not consecutive, and the endnotes don’t seem to contain page numbers even if I have inserted them. Also, I want the in text citation numbers to be in standard superscript, numbered consecutively, with the endnotes showing the proper citation information with page numbers, etc. The way it’s supposed to be in CMS for humanities.  I have tried communicating with one Clarivate Analytics help person who initialy told that what I want to do can’t be done.  But what I want to do is just standard. 

Am I missing something? 

[leanne]

Do you want “endnotes” as in footnotes but all at the end of the document, or do you want a numbered bibliography at the end.  They are different.  One, uses the Word processor to insert the “citation” as a footnote (or ‘endnote’ if positioned at the end of the paper rather than at the foot of the page) and the other uses endnote to insert the citation directly into the text, with any specifics as to superscript, etc criteria as defined in the endnote output style. 

Chicago is usually a footnote style, I think.  The word processor can change ‘footnotes’ to position them at the end of the document rather than at the foot of the page (although I don’t know off the top of my head how to do that). 

Also there are two separate sections of the output style that handle how footnotes vs a bibliography are formated, but you can choose to have the footnote use the bibliography settings in the output style. There are several chicago footnote output styles, some that include a bibliography in addition to the footnotes (and there the footnotes are usually shorter) or one that only uses footnotes.  

Finally, “cited Pages” need to be defines, if you are using the edit citation or edit footnote settings to insert those as opposed to “pages” the field that defines the page range of the paper.  

You can see what a “numbered” style looks like by choosing that.  But if you have already entered them as footnotes from the word processor, then there are some macros that Endnote providers and users have developed. but they aren’t for the feint hearted.  

[fschodt]

Thanks much for your rely and for a helping a befuddled user.  I have used Endnote before years ago and didn’t seem to have this issue.  What I want to do is simple.  I am writing a book, and I usually use CMS style endnotes, not footnotes.I want to use superscript consecutive numbering to indicate endnotes (on a separate page) at the end of the paper (but before the bibliography). Within the text of the book, I want to place endnote superscript numbers after the period in sentences, and I want them to be consecutive.  I had assumed that one does this with Endnote Cite While you Write.  Should I be doing this within Word and forget about Cite While You Write?  I think it’s quite easy to do this in Word.  I’m completely mystified why I am having so much trouble, even after corresponding with a tech support person, who didn’t seem to understand what I want to do.  

If it’s better simply to use footnote style, and then try to convert to endnote style later, that’s of course a possibility, but I don’t know why it would be necessary to do it later.  With the settings I have now, there is no superscript numbering (only block [1], [2}, etc., and the numbering is not consecutive (any similar citation is given the same number), and in the footnote/end note section, there is no page number that appears.  If I select CMS (author-date), however, then the numbering seems to appear, but I don’t want to see that much text cluttering up my writing (i.e., in the body of the text) at this stage in the game.   

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated, as I seem to be missing something very basic.  Thanks in advance for any help.

[leanne]

You do not want to start with a footnote style and convert to endnote later.  

Can you copy a paragraph of text as to what you want, or attach a screen shot of what you expect at the end of the day? 

the rest of the below is me guessing what you are saying - and I am just not sure I am on the right track.  

Do the endnotes contain any citation text, or are they notes?  

What distinguishes your endnotes from your bibliography?  The bibliography and citations, at the end of the day will be author, date, but for now you want them superscripted to make the text cleaner?  You can alway use a different output style now (to generate citations and a bibliography for now, which can be updated with the CMS author year style later.  

that leaves your endnotes, - which might end up at the end of the text (including the bibliography) but you can always try to move the bibliography into a separate document at the end?  

You see, you can’t use 2 endnote styles (one of footnotes and one for the citations/bibliography) at the same time… 

[fschodt]

Hi, Leanne. 

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my humble plea for help!  I think part of the problem in talking about endnotes is that EndNote and endnotes are obviously not the same thing.   :- )

I’ve tried to attach three screen shots, from a book I wrote in 2013, titled Professor Risley and the Imperial Japanese Troupe.  I believe I actually used EndNotes when writing this, which seems rather surprising to me.  One shows the text body, with in-text citations.  The second shows the endnotes, which for all chapters are compiled at the back of the book (separated by chapter headings). The third snip shows the form of the bibliography itself, which comes after the endnotes.   I hope this helps!  

Again, much obliged for your advice and understanding.   

Fred

[leanne]

I will try to get you started.  I am not a humanities footnote guru though.  

I have Chicago 16th footnote as a style which includes both footnotes and a Bibliography.  

In Word you can insert your “endnotes” instead of inserting footnotes from the “References” tab.  You can adjust endnotes numbering to be 1,2,3 and they will be superscripted (mine were originally set a i , ii etc and I needed to change them to 1,2,3 numbering which I did by using “tell me how” box and just picked “endnotes” and the options popped up).  

Now, you may want to edit the EndNote**   specifics for each reference type in EndNote’s output style (save as to a new name- so you know it is the right one) to remove the final period, as you often want to introduce additional text after it – you can enter your citations into the endnote itself (not into the text).  and type the other text you want to appear.  I find this easier than to use EndNote’s “edit citation” tool to introduce prefix or suffix or cited pages information into the _endnotecitation _ introduced by Endnote.**  You will need then to manually enter the period too, where it belongs, and any additional punctuation, if you cite two citations in the same footnote, for example.  

so for example – I added 3 separate citations to an “endnote” (not 3 at once) and added some intervening text (I didn’ t remove the offending period from the templates though, if you did, you would need to add back a period where you wanted one to appear).  Doing it this way, I could also add the semi-colon space, where I wanted it to appear.   I am not entirely sure how to get the endnote number not superscripted though, in the “endnotes” section.  

The Chicago 16th footnote output style , gave me the text as shown in the image attached.  

One caveate you will notice is that the EndNote inserted Bibliography is appearing before the endnotes rather than after them.  I am not exactly sure how to override that.  Maybe a user more familiar with footnotes/endnotes and EndNote can comment? 

If it were me.  When the whole thing was ready to submit.  I would remove field codes or use Endnote tools to “convert to plain text” (ON A COPY) and move the EndNote generated Bibliography into a new document.  I don’t know how to get Word to allow text to be positioned at the end of the document after the “endnotes”. 

Hope that is helpful.  You may need to tweak the footnote templates in the output style further, or the bibliography templates.  Those are separate sections of the  EndNote “Chicago 16th footnote” output style for the reference type templates ( see second image ) for footnote (which also affect the output style’s handling of Word’s _endnotes)  - see third image _. 

EndNote’s footnote templates (in EndNote Chicago 16th footnote output style)  also have a long and a short form (first time cited and subsequent times cited) 

Now I tried to put Endnote things in bold and Word’s endnotes things in italics, but it is still probably as clear as mud!   

 

[fschodt]

Hi, Leanne. 

Thank you so much, again.  I can see that I have really thoroughly confused.  Your attached images seem to be what I am looking for.  If I am parsing what you say correctly (and I may not be), it seems as though you are suggesting using Chicago 16 footnote style, but actually citing the bibliography, not using CWYW in Word, but just using Word itself to put in endnotes, instead of footnotes.  Is that correct?  That is sort of the conclusion that I have been coming to. That I should just use EndNote for bibliography management, and forget about CWYW.  I know that it is very easy to create endnotes in Word, and also to edit for superscript format, etc., etc.  Maybe EndNote is really more of a bibliography management program than an in-text citation/footnote/endnote program?

Tomorrow I will copy a couple chapters where I have been thoroughly confused by the CWYW results, see if I can clean them up, and apply your suggestions. The way my settings are now (with Chicago, numbered), citation numbers are all screwy, as EndNote seems to apply the same number for any citation that uses the same bibliographic info, even if multiple in-text cites actualy are citing the same work with different page numbers.  What used to be called Ibid or Op Cit in the old days.

Very indebted.

Fred

[leanne]

Almost  – but you are still using endnote’s  CWYW, but you are inserting them into the footnotes/endnotes and not citing in the text itself.  That is the difference between a footnote style and and and in text style. – EndNote still controls how they appear in the endnotes and how they appear in the bibliography.  They are separate templates in EndNote’s Chicago  output style.  

[fschodt]

Hi, Leanne. Thanks so much.  Just trying to parse your reply again, but are you saying that I should use Microsoft Word’s endnotes (which is very easy to use) to make the endnote citation in the text, then somehow edit that citation with EndNotes CWYW? Is that what you mean?  I’m sorry to ask questions that must seem very stupid. I’m trying to set up a remote session with one of the EndNote people to guide me through this process. In the text I have now, originally created with CWYW, I see endnotes, that are not sequential and not formatted the way I want, either in the text numbering or in the endnotes section at the end of the text. When I use Word’s endnote insertion, it creates a separate group of endnotes, formatted the way I want them.  I wind up with two groups of endnotes. 

Luckily, I am still at the stage where I can go back and delete all the CWYW entries, and replace them with Word endnotes. Perhaps that is what I should do?  For the Word endnote insertations, I can just copy the text from the EndNote library, using what appears when I select Chicago footnote style.  Is this what you would suggest doing? 

If there’s any website or page you would recommend reading, I’ll try to figure it out. There must be some other people who are as confused as I am, and I hate to tax your patience too much!  :- )

Thanks much,

Fred

[leanne]

You insert an “endnote/footnote”, you move to the endnote/footnote that is created when you insert the text endnote and insert the EndNote citation into it.  The criteria for how that appears, is defined in the footnote templates of the output style, so you can adjust how you want each ref type to be formated in the endnotes, in the Chicago footnote style.  It should do the ibids, etc correctly. 

In addition, EndNote   creates a Bibliography separately - which is defined by how the bibliography templates are defined in the same output style.  

(I  am sending you a PM.)